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    Default The times are a-changing in France ...



    An interesting article. I've never met a Frenchmen (esp the women) I didn't like.

    But all the same there is an odd kind of arrogance ...

    BBC NEWS | Programmes | From Our Own Correspondent | France's rendezvous with history

    Earlier this week, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said his country would end four decades of self-imposed isolation and return to Nato's military command.

    Here, the BBC's Allan Little reflects on France's long journey to reconcile itself with one of the darkest chapters in its history and its difficult relationship with the US and the UK.

    There is a story about a conversation between General de Gaulle, who, as president of the French Republic, telephoned his American counterpart Lyndon B Johnson, to inform him that France had decided to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty alliance.

    Since its foundation nearly two decades earlier, Nato had had its headquarters in France. Now Nato would have to move.

    Furthermore, de Gaulle added, it was his intention that all American service personnel should be removed from French soil.

    "Does that include," Johnson is said to have replied, "those buried in it?"
    Ouch.

    Anti-Americanism

    But go to the cemeteries of Normandy and you see what an Anglo-Saxon business the D-Day landings - and the liberation of France - really were.

    The historian Andrew Roberts has calculated that of the 4,572 allied servicemen who died on that day on which, in retrospect, so much of human history seems now to have pivoted - only 19 were French. That is 0.4%.

    Of the rest, 37 were Norwegians, and one was Belgian. The rest were from the English speaking world - two New Zealanders, 13 Australians, 359 Canadians, 1,641 Britons and, most decisively of all, 2,500 Americans.

    After the disastrous Suez crisis in 1956, it fell to Harold Macmillan as UK prime minister to move Britain from the Age of Empire to the Age of Europe.
    But his attempts to take the United Kingdom into what was then called the Common Market fell foul of General de Gaulle's famous vetoes.

    Harold Macmillan spoke of the strained relationship with France

    Twice Monsieur Non listened politely to Britain's plea, and twice he slammed the door.

    De Gaulle saw in British membership the Trojan Horse of American imperialism in Europe.

    After Algeria won its independence from France in the early 1960s, de Gaulle was fond of saying that he had not granted freedom to one country only to sit by and watch France lose its independence to the Americans.

    Macmillan, in old age, spoke ruefully of France's almost psychotic relationship with its Anglo-Saxon allies.

    France, he said, had made peace with Germany, had forgiven Germany for the brutality of invasion and the humiliation of four years of occupation, but it could never - never - forgive the British and Americans for the liberation.

    French anti-Americanism has a long pedigree. The 18th Century philosophers of the European Enlightenment believed the New World to be self evidently inferior.

    They spoke - and wrote, prolifically - of the degeneration of plant and animal life in America.

    They believed America had emerged from the ocean millennia after the old continents; and that accounted for the cultural inferiority of civilisations that tried to plant themselves there.

    Self-liberation

    I was living in Paris when France celebrated the 60th anniversary of its liberation.

    In Paris the French Resistance received back-up from US soldiers
    I went to the beaches of Normandy on the 60th anniversary of D-Day and watched veterans assembling one last time, old men, heads held high, marching past blown up photographs of themselves as young liberators.

    Paris launched a series of events to mark the 60th anniversary of its own liberation in August 2004.

    The city's mayor had given the celebrations the title Paris Se Libere! - Paris Liberates Herself!

    One of the newspapers published a 48-page commemorative issue. There was no mention of the allies until page 18.

    Building a myth

    An English friend of mine, in town that weekend, had remarked how empty Paris felt in August, the month the city empties out as its residents head for their annual sojourn in the countryside.

    "I see," he said "that Paris was liberated in August. I guess the Parisians didn't find out about it till September, when they came back."

    Again - ouch. The caustic Anglo-Saxon wit stings.

    President Sarkozy has taken his country back into the Atlantic fold
    It stings because the tale that France told itself after the war was built around a lie. Paris se libere.

    The words were first spoken by de Gaulle himself at the Hotel de Ville on the evening of 25 August 1944.

    Paris had been liberated by her own people, he declared, "with the help of the armies of France, with the help and support of the whole of France, that is to say of fighting France, the true France, the eternal France."

    France knew, in its heart, even in 1944, that that was not true. It took until the 1980s for a generation of historians properly to re-examine the darkest chapter of France's 20th Century history.

    When I was living in Paris, it struck me that Sarkozy - not yet president - had the potential to be France's first post-Gaullist leader.

    His enemies called him "Sarkozy the American" in the hope that this would make him unelectable. It did not work.

    And now he has taken his country back into the Atlanticist fold.

    It seems to me another step in a long journey, in which France - in its mature, disputatious, entrenched democracy - is growing reconciled to the history that is now challenging the myths.
    I think this really hits a chord ...

    France, he said, had made peace with Germany... but it could never - never - forgive the British and Americans for the liberation
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    I had no idea the chip on their shoulder was that bad.

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    Well to a certain extent I understand. As I've said, I have problems with Americans who say "you'd be talking German if not for the good old U S of A".

    You have to have a certain amount of national pride.

    But the absurdity that they formed an alliance easier with the country who brutally occupied them over the countries who helped to liberate them. Sorry not liberate, because France liberated itself of course.

    There is another side to this of course. The Allied Soldiers who died liberating Normany have some of the best well kept graves of anywhere in the world. Which shows that at least some locals remember the price paid by foreigners on D-Day.

    There are two Frances. As a culture they can be arrogant and snobby. As individuals they can be really some of the nicest people you'd ever met on the planet.

    Previous politicians like Jacque Chirac have continued Charles De Gaulles kind of bullish way of being rude and offhand with other countries. New president Nicolas Sarkozy has been a breath of fresh air, trying to offer a hand of Gallic freindship across the globe. I kind of liked him, until he remarried - no man deserves so much power and such a fabulous wife to boot!
    Attached Thumbnails The times are a-changing in France ...-carlabruni.jpg  
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    she probably cured his erectile dysfunction

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    Quote Originally Posted by ken View Post
    she probably cured his erectile dysfunction
    She cured mine!
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    Obviously this is a big issue in the French psyche, as Sarkozy is facing a vote of no-confidence over it.

    BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Sarkozy faces no-confidence vote
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    I just don't understand France.

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    Away from the sexy-wife shenanigans, Sarkozy has came to power promising to modernise France.

    It's long been ruled by left wing politics and trade unions, and his attempts to cause change have not been popular.

    There's another strike this week,

    BBC NEWS | World | Europe | New nationwide strike hits France

    Although in France, strikes tend to be a bit like buses, so there'll probably be another along soon.
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    sounds like they have it better than the rest of us in our countries

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    Renault jobs row rocks EU summit

    I hope the EU puts sanctions on France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ken View Post
    Renault jobs row rocks EU summit

    I hope the EU puts sanctions on France.
    I don't see how the EU will sanction France - it's the kind of behaviour which is typical of France. And understandable really trying to use French cash to safeguard French jobs.

    Alas in the UK, the last thing they'd do is use UK money to safeguard UK jobs!!!
    I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that which you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

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    Although in France, strikes tend to be a bit like buses, so there'll probably be another along soon.
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    My Grandmother was French and one of sweetest, smartest and beautiful women you would ever meet.
    As far as French politics, I guess like many cultures, you have to live it to understand their thinking. We all have sense of national pride (unless of coarse you hate your country), which in my mind is a good thing.
    The thing I enjoy most about traveling is meeting the people and trying to understand what makes them think the way they do.

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